America At War:
Civilian Casualties
With Sidney Jones
Human Rights Watch
RESCHEDULED Wednesday, Nov. 14, 2001; 2:30 p.m. EST

Increasing airstrikes, cluster bombs and military special ground forces have undoubtedly caused anxiety and fear for the people of Afghanistan. Additionally, U.S. Navy fighter jets have also accidentally dropped errant bombs in neighborhoods that have increased civilian casualties.

Join Sidney Jones, executive director of the Asia division of the Human Rights Watch, on Wednesday, Nov. 14, at 2:30 p.m. EST to discuss civilian casualties in Afghanistan.

A transcript follows.

Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.

washingtonpost.com: Sidney, do you know the status of the two American Christian aid workers, Heather Mercer and Dayna Curry? There have been reports that the women were moved from Kabul to the south by the retreating Taliban. Will they be released soon? What efforts are being taken now by the government and human rights organizations for their release?

Sidney Jones: We don't know the status of Heather or Dayna, nor of their international colleagues,nor of the sixteen Afghan workers detained with them. We understand there are unconfirmed reports from the German media that some of the latter may have been released, but I stress that's unconfirmed. The situation in Kandahar is likely to remain very unclear for the next few days. Everything depends on where the aid workers are being held and under whose control, and the change in power is more likely to determine their release than any direct interventions at this stage by governments or human rights organizations.

Crofton, Md.: How can the U.S. ensure that women are accorded decent human rights in a post-Taliban Afghanistan? This is important to me, but how important is it to U.S. security interests and the Bush Administration?

Sidney Jones: I know that the issue of ensuring participation of women in a future government in Afghanistan is very much on the minds of UN planners now who are furiously working to come up with a transition plan. It's important to remember that it's not just restoration of women's rights that's a concern, but how to ensure that some of the very well-educated Afghan women outside Afghanistan now are consulted and drawn into the planning process.

Arlington, Va.: There has been lots of coverage of the civilian casualties issue and whether it will (or should) significantly impact the conduct of the war. For the first time, I read an article yesterday morning in the London Times that documents some of the atrocities of the Taliban. Shouldn’t we see as much or more coverage of this aspect of the war?

Sidney Jones: In all wars, the warring parties are required to take every possible measure to protect civilian lives, and the lives of others who are not directly involved in the conflict (prisoners, for example). No question that the Taliban have been responsible for extremely grave human rights violations. I think there HAS been a lot of attention to these abuses, and accounts of a particularly brutal massacre by the Taliban in the Hazarajat region of AFghanistan that took place last January were broadcast around the world.
But it's important that the US, and now its Northern Alliance allies, also make every effort to ensure that civilian lives are protected. This is not just required by human rights law -- it's also essential if the post-Taliban government is to have any legitimacy among the Afghan people.

Chicago, Ill.: Greetings,
First -- thank you from a law librarian who has prepared dozens of asylum packets. When I see a Human Rights Watch report on the topic or country, I rejoice greatly.

Second -- a question.
Something that has been puzzling to me over the past decade plus has been the question of whether or not when I say "human rights" am I in fact saying "Northern Hemisphere between X & Y Lattitude Rights"?

I worry that I am being culturally elitist by imposing my interpretation of the Basic Rights UN documents on cultures that place a very different view of people.

Sidney Jones: Human rights isn't just the concern of privileged Northerners or citizens of industrialized countries. Look at all the Afghan women's organizations who are demanding their rights outside their own country (because they can't do so at home), or the Pakistani civil rights organizations demanding a restoration of democracy, or many civil liberties organizations in Nigeria, Egypt, Indonesia and elsewhere who want to live their lives free of repression. The demand for human rights is truly universal.

Philadelphia, Pa.: Is there any accurate information about civilian losses in the territories that have been revenged by bombs, mortar, and gunfire? How far behind the war is the information about civilian involvements and the casualties?

Sidney Jones: There isn't any accurate count on civilian losses thus far, and there isn't likely to be until after it becomes secure enough inside Afghanistan for neutral organizations to go in and collect data. We obviously can't rely on the Taliban's figures, but neither can we rely on information coming from any party directly involved. It may take months, even years, to know what the true figure of civilian casualties is from the US bombing combined with Taliban and Northern Alliance activity.

Washington, D.C.: Ms. Jones,
In regular Pentagon briefings, officials are portraying reports of civilian casualties in Afghanistan as “Taliban propaganda,” and as part of a larger “propaganda war.” Reports of civilian casualties are coming from mainstream press outlets such as the Associated Press. Are reporters operating independently in Afghanistan, or are they being controlled by the Taliban as the Pentagon suggests?

Sidney Jones: The press inside by no means totally controlled by the Taliban, although the Taliban obviously have their own reports to the media. Many, indeed most, of the journalists operating in Pakistan and Afghanistan are independent, and that includes the journalists from al-Jazeera -- whose Kabul antennae were apparently struck by a US missile yesterday.

Washington, D.C.: References were made in the period immediately after the Sept. 11 attacks of links between al Qaeda and militant Islamic groups in Indonesia. Could there be any other groups in Indonesia other than Laskar Jihad with al Qaeda? Do you see a relationship between al Qaeda and Laskar Jihad? And what is the relationship between the Laskar Jihad and the Indonesian military, (which the Bush administration has offered increased support for in response to the Sept. 11 attacks)? Thank you.

Sidney Jones: Indonesia is repeatedly named as a country with possible al-Qaeda cells, but there's nothing confirmed at this stage. The head of Laskar Jihad recently told the Jakarta media that Osama bin Laden recently offered him a large donation, but that he turned it down. The Laskar Jihad leader himself fought in Aghanistan but not with the bin Laden forces, and he has made derogatory comments about bin Laden. Nevertheless, there are reports of other militant Muslim organizations operating in Maluku (Moluccas) with ties to bin Laden; I haven't seen hard evidence yet. There have also been reports of bin Laden's invovlement in the marijuana production in Aceh, but I have seen no suggestion of any links between bin Laden and the Acehnese rebels in the Free Aceh Movement (which is a nationalist, not a religous movement). Laskar Jihad has to have some support from the Indonesian military -- it wouldn't have the ability to operate as essentially a private army if it didn't.

Washington, D.C.: I understand the United States has used cluster bombs in the Afghanistan campaign. Is there any international legal basis for forcing an end to this practice?

Sidney Jones: Many people see cluster bombs as inherently indiscriminate, similar in land mines. The use of indiscriminate weapons that can kill or wound the civilian population violates key provisions of international law. We have called for an end to the use of these weapons, at a minimum in or near populated areas. Each weapon contains thousands of bomblets, many of which lie on the ground unexploded and they effectively turn into anti-personnel land mines. For a country like Afghanistan, where some 1,000 people die per year because of mines and which still has one of the highest rates of unexploded ordnance in the world, the use of cluster bombs is absolutely unacceptable.

Longview, Wash.:
Good morning.
There was much cheer about the developments in Afghanistan recently but a few things concern me.

(1) After 25 years in power, will the Taliban so readily give up?

(2) We are told that the Northern Alliance is not hostile to human rights but reports of teen-age Taliban members being lined up and executed in a school gym disturbs me. Is that story true?

(3) I have seen NOTHING in the media the past couple of days to indicate that the U.S. is still bombing Afghanistan. Are the bombing raids continuing? If so, doesn't that make for a catastrophy come winter?
I'm very sure that 2 million innocent Afghan civilians starving to death as a result of the U.S. refusing to halt bombings will make us as bad as the terrorists. We're supposed to be BETTER than that.

Thank you.

Sidney Jones: We have received conflicting stories about the Northern Alliance executing young Taliban fighters in a school in Mazar-i-Sharif. It is not clear that mass executions took place. There are different accounts as to whether the fighter were intent on surrender -- if they were, and the Northern Alliance fighters killed them, that would indeed be a major human rights violations. If the killings occurred in an exchange of fire where both sides were shooting, it's less likely that human rights violations were involved. We need more information before making a judgment on that one.
The Taliban have not been in pwoer for 25 years -- they came in in 1996 and their reliance on foreign forces, including Arab, Pakistani, and Chechen, as well as their own record of repression, has not made them popular. But they are ethnic Pashtuns, and many Pashtuns would prefer to be ruled by their own than by the Northern Alliance forces that are made up of Tajiks, Usbeks, Hazaras, and many other groups. This is why the creation of a broad-based government is so importahnt, and why it is of such concern that the military developments outstripped the political.
One useful thing about recent developments is that the restoration of some security in the cities of Herat and Mazar-i-Sharif will make it possible for more systematic food deliveries to the areas that need it most. So the catastrophe of starvation in the face of widespread displacement and approaching winter, something that could kill more AFghans than any amount of bombing, may still be
averted.

Washington, D.C.: What should the U.S. be doing that it isn't already doing to live up to the Geneva Convention's dictate regarding the obligation to protect the lives of civilians?

Sidney Jones: Making sure it has more accurate intelligence about possible Taliban sites.

Atlanta, Ga: How can we create a movement within the Afghan-American population to become more visible and indulgent in aiding their homeland. We have many educated young Afghans who live in the USA who can provide help to United Nations to create a broader based government and assist in rebuilding the nation. Thank you.

Sidney Jones: The importance of the diaspora to the reconstruction of their homeland was important for Cambodians after 1993, and for East Timor after 1999, and it will be very important for Afghans. I would urge Afghan-Americans with professional skills who are interested in providing help to contact the U.N. and have applications on file either as UN Volunteers or as full time staff if and when full scale recruitment begins.

Laurel, Md.: Why do you think it is so difficult for Americans to understand that the civilian deaths in Afghanistan are as devastating to their countrymen as the deaths in the U.S. have been to Americans? To what extent, if any, do you think the U.S. media has downplayed the civilian losses in Afghanistan since the bombing began? What do you think would be required in order for the U.S. to stop the bombing at this point? To what extent, if any, do you think the U.S. policy regarding problem-solving via military retaliation is hypocritical (okay for the U.S., but not for others)?

Sidney Jones: I don't think the US media has downplayed civilian casualties in Afghanistan, but I think Afghanistan is indeed so remote a place for many Americans that it may be difficult to identify with the tragedy there -- a tragedy that has been taking place for the last two decades of civil war. I think there needs a full-scale overhaul of US education, so that there is more exposure to the culture and politics of countries outside the U.S., more foreign language instruction, even at the high school level, more opportunties for educational exchanges with other countries.

Cleveland Park, D.C.: A spokeswoman for the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan (RAWA) has been quoted as opposing any participation by the Northern Alliance in a post-Taliban government, due to the atrocities associated with their previous tenure in power in Kabul. Do you think such criticism is still valid, or is the Nothern Alliance a "changed" entity now?

Sidney Jones: It's difficult to avoid participation by the Northern Alliance in a future government, and not all Northern Alliance commanders or leaders are equally responsible for past abuses. We believe that part of the planning for the transition in Afghanistan should be to include a process for establishing accountability, so that those individuals known to be responsible for war crimes or crimes against humanity are increasingly marginalized, excluded from a future government, and eventually brought to justice. But justice will be a long way off under the best of circumstances. Right now, it's important to establish basic security in AFghanistan -- some of the stories of killings and lootings are linking those crimes not to organized forces but to gangs, many of the armed, who are proliferating in an atmosphere of total lawlessness.

Washington, D.C.: What has to happen now for humanitarian relief efforts to succeed in Afghanistan? Is it all up to the aid agencies or must US military policy change in order to get the food and supplies delivered to the people who need them most urgently?

Sidney Jones: For the aid effort to succeed, a minimum level of security has got to be re-established so that truck convoys can move freely, so that drivers in Pakistan, and international and local aid workers feel safe going back in. (The real heroes and heroines are the Afghan staff of aid agencies who have stayed on the ground trying to protect humanitarian supplies and ensuring they get to the most vulnerable.) The aid effort also depends on serious attention to the problem of displaced persons inside Afghanistan. It's much more difficult to help people who are moving about, fleeing conflict or trying to find shelter, than helping a sedentary population.
That also raises the question of refugees. As the Taliban fighters and their supporters flee toward the Pakistan border, we may see more problems of infiltration of refugee camps, and protecting refugees from militarization efforts may be another huge problem in the offing.

Park Point, D.C.: Sidney Jones: We have one giant resconstruction project in Afghanistan, after bombing it so indescriminately. How soon before organized food distribution can be actuated; brought in by truck etc, safely, so that people will not starve?

What form of land mine excavation can be successfully executed so troops and Afghani's can move without fear?

Are land mines essentially Russian in origin or are our military manufacturers hardware out there also?

Sidney Jones: On land mines, Afghanistan is one of the most heavily mined countries in the world. There have been several brave demining agencies working in Afghanistan, including the Mine Clearance center whose four employees were accidentally killed in Kabul in the early days of the war. A top priority of the international community should be to ensure that those agencies can get back in action as soon as possible. For more information on what you might be able to do to help, there's a website for the International Campaign to End Landmines -- you can find it through a yahoo search or write to the Arms Division at Human Rights Watch in Washington.

Alexandria, Va.: In reference to the Christian aid workers, when they were first captured I was surprised to learn that proselytizing Christianity was a capital offense under the Taliban. Following the recent massacre of Christians in Pakistan, some newspapers reported that proselytizing Christianity, as well as conversion from Islam to Christianity, constitute criminal offenses in Pakistan and other Muslim countries, as well. Is that a matter of concern to you, and is your organization working to protect the free exercise of religion in a post-Taliban Afghanistan, as a fundamental human right?

Sidney Jones: Yes, we have always defended the right to freedom of religion and have always urged that governments adopt the broad definition of freedom of religion used by the U.N. Special Rapporteur on Religious Intolerance. That definition includes the right to change a religion, to disseminate religious materials, to hold services with a religious community, to train religious leaders, and so on. We have spoken out against persecution of Muslim Uighurs in China and against Christians and Ahmadis in Pakistan (and many other places besides).

Washington, D.C.: From the U.S. perspective, human rights concerns in this campaign tend to focus on the need to minimize civilian casualties, provide humanitarian assistance, and to otherwise observe humanitarian law standards. But what about the abuses that both the Taliban and the Northern Alliance have perpetrated? We hear about the primitive treatment of women, the possible use of human shields, the use of child soldiers, the interference with relief measures, etc. What effective pressure, legal or otherwise, can be brought to bear to end these practices?

Sidney Jones: The issue of how you have influence on an organization like the Taliban is a tough one. Normally you look for what an organization wants, and either offer it as a carrot or withhold it as a stick. Political legitimacy, economic aid, a good international image, arms supplies, membership in an international organization: these are some of the things that governments want that can sometimes be used as pressure. But the Taliban were a hard nut to crack, because they had a steady source of arms and other assistance from Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, and what they wanted most -- international legitimacy in the form of a seat at the United Nations -- no one was prepared to give them as long as they were so repressive and harbored known terrorists. We tried various forms of advocacy, but I can't point any successful outcome on that one.

Montrea;, Quebec: Glad to have your participation. Where can we find reliable information about civilian casualties caused by the war? Why is the North American media so lacking in coverage of the human costs in Afghanistan despite massive amounts of leathal weapons used?

Sidney Jones: I'd urge everyone to read as much of the foreign press online as possible. The US media can be good (and not just the Washington Post!) but it's important to read others for balance. There's a first-rate English language newspaper from Pakistan called The Dawn, for example. You can read the conservative and liberal British press on line. See what some of the Asian countries like Indonesia are saying about the war in Afghanistan by reading the Jakarta Post (www.thejakartapost.com). It's not just a question of whether we're getting accurate information at home; it's understanding how the rest of the world sees the U.S. and its actions that's terribly important.

Alexandria, Va.: Have Taliban placed soldiers and artillery in schools and hospitals, thus deliberately endangering the Afghan civilians there?

Is the practice by the Taliban a human rights violation?

Sidney Jones: At one stage we had reports of this happening in Herat, but as far as I know, it wasn't confirmed. If the Taliban did deliberately place soldiers and artillery in civilian institutions, this could be a violation of international humanitarian law, but we'd have to know more about the circumstances.
That's the problem with trying to document human rights in wartime more generally. You have to have so much knowledge about the circumstances to make an accurate call about whether something is or is not a violation that good documentation without direct access to the country becomes extremely difficult. Sometimes we can rely on refugee accounts, but even there, you have to be extremely careful.

Washington, D.C.: Is there any record of how members of the Northern Alliance governed and grant human rights to their people? Do you sense a tough road ahead, or will there be cooperation and effort to enforce human rights?

Sidney Jones: last question! There's no really good record that I know of, particularly for the 1992-96 period. But read Ahmad Rashid's book, just called the Taliban. That will give you a flavor for the players and their records.

Alexandria, Va.: Human Rights Watch is to be commended for attempting to secure the release of local Jews unjustly imprisoned in Shiraz, Iran.

Any possibility that the Iranian dictatorship will release these Shirazis in the next few years?

Sidney Jones: I'll check with my colleagues in the Middle East Division. Try calling me at HRW in New York and I'll see what I can find out.

Mt. Lebanon, Pa.: So what has China been doing with its Islamic fundamentalist unhappiness in the eastern provinces? Ignoring it, suppressing it, just watching it? And does China still lash out at and terrorize native Tibetans in their homeland, Tibet? Thanks much.

Sidney Jones: China appears to have been using the war on terrorism to justify a crackdown on the Uighurs in Xinjiang, but it's important to recognize at the same time that there is a security problem there. The problem is that the Chinese government does not make sufficient effort to distinguish between those involved in violence and peaceful advocates of strengthening Uighur culture, for example. We have a new report on Xinjiang on our website, www.hrw.org

Farmington, Maine: How do you think the United State's action(s)are being perceived by other nations after 9-11?
My personal feeling is that morally, bombing one of the pooriest countries in the world isn't something the United States should do, regardless of objective. Is there anything the United States can do to restore some sense of "true power" in the world forum?

Sidney Jones: I think there's a lot of concern outside the U.S. about the war in Afghanistan. There is also enormous sympathy for the victims of September 11; concern about the war effort should not be read as callousness about the fate of those in New York, Washington or Pennsylvania. The U.S. was fairly careful in its targeting but not careful enough. But I've found that the concern goes far beyond Afghanistan -- there is a much more widespread feeling that Americans don't fully grasp the impact of U.S. policies elsewhere in the world: for example the impact on civilians of sanctions against Iraq.

Oslo, Norway: 50% of the norwegian population are against the war in Afghanistan. This situation is almost the same in most of Europe. The main cause of this is that a war in Afghanistan will increase terrorism and hate towards the U.S. But we are also many worried about the death toll. In Iraq US (and allies) killed 250.000 sivilians during the war, and approximatly 1 mill by sanctions. Half of the dead were under the age of 5.

How is this situation in Afghanistan?

After the Gulf war, U.S. Generals admitted that 3 of 4 missiles did not hit their targets. Can we expect the same today?

To all of you who want more information about terror. Please look at this article by Dr. Robert M. Bowman, Lt. Col., USAF, (Ret.).

Sidney Jones: I think as in the Gulf War we will see a gradual emergence of facts and information that are at odds with current portrayals. This always happens. Re the opposition to the war in Europe, the concern is expressed not just in Europe, but in much of Asia where I focus my work, that pushing out the Taliban does not necessarily make a major dent on terrorism.

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