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America Attacked:
Afghanistan Refugee Women
With Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam
Women's Commission for Refugee Women and Children
Friday, Sept. 28, 2001; Noon EDT
The Sept. 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon are being
called the single worst act of terrorism on U.S. soil. The Bush
administration has declared war on terrorism as the country considers
new measures for homeland security. A military build-up continues as
troops, ships and planes prepare for an as yet undisclosed mission.
Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam, technical advisor of the Women's Commission for Refugee Women and Children, LIVE from London on Friday, Sept. 28 at Noon EDT, talked about the state of Afghanistan refugee women in Pakistan.
For the last two years, Azerbaijani-Moghaddam has been working with the Women's Commission for Refugee Women and Children as a on gender based in Peshawar, Pakistan. The project aims to raise awareness on women's rights and gender issues, allowing Afghan women to empower themselves by making their voices heard and by gaining better access to information media.
Azerbaijani-Moghaddam has lived in Afghanistan and Pakistan since 1995, working as a researcher, community development worker and gender specialist.
Sippi's work in the region has included water and food distribution within Afghanistan, supporting Afghan humanitarian groups in Pakistan and leading negotiations with the Taliban authorities to secure work permits for female survey teams.
Below is the transcript.
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washingtonpost.com:
Tell us about your experiences in Afghanistan. How were you and the women treated in Afghanistan? What change did the women encounter when they fled to Pakistan?
Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam: I have been working in Afghanistan since 1995. The thing which has struck me the most vividly is the absolute variety of women, the lives they lead, their experiences and living conditions. Treatment of myself and of women varies from place to place and time to time. It also depends on the women concerned. Various groups 'pick' on certain women at certain times e.g. educated women have been 'picked on' by the taliban in urban areas and young, beautiful women are subject to forced marriage or rape when hostilities overtake their area - tha's common all over the world. I think for many women coming to Pakistan has been restrictive.
Chantilly, Va.:
Would the Afgan refugee women encourage their daughters to attend schools set up by the western world and its local hosts at the refugee camps?
Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam: Afghan families are by and large keen on education. Obviously the male head of family has a great deal of say for education especially for daughters. I think that if certain topics are considered as too 'western' or unIslamic then parents would refrain from allowing daughters to attend the course or school teaching such things. If the school was simply set up by a Western agency but had a curriculum which was culturally sensitive then families would most certainly send their children, including daughters.
Fairfax, Va.:
Could you comment on how 'western' ideas for women's roles are received by women of the Afghan community? Although the choices seem simple to those of us raised with these ideas, I wonder how difficult they may be for those with such a different perspective.
Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam: I am often shocked by how deeply instilled gender roles are for some educated Afghan women. I have had conversations with groups and individuals who, for instance, think it's shameful to make a husband or son cook or wash clothes. I find this surprising. But then I find these sorts of ideas and attitudes among diaspora Muslim communities too - one woman who has lived in the UK for over 20 years told me that cooking and cleaning is 'in women's blood'!
Reston, Va.:
Sepideh: What are Afghani women's feelings vis-a-vis the Taliban's restrictions on work, garb, and social standing. Also, what are Muslim women's feeling in general in this regard even to lesser, yet still restrictive customs, regarding women. Do you see a future where Muslim women may be able to choose their lifestyle?
Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam: Rural women have not been forced to wear the burqa but have traditional forms of covering. Some see the burqa as a sign of improved social standing. Some educated women and urban women find the burqa restrictive and appalling. Some educated urban women feel 'safer' under the burqa in the present circumstances. Some women seem to do fine, dodging the restictions and living their lives, others seem deeeply depressed and affected. The picture is never black and white. I think that the lesson I've learnt from Afghanistan and being from Iran is that we have to struggle, engage, discuss and find all sorts of creative ways to make our voices and opinions, and sometimes our dissent heard. I think I like the cooperation and collaboration which I see between women's groups engaged with the Afghan issue. I think we should see more south-South dialogue on such issues e.g. between women from Iran and Afghanistan, Arabic countries and Afghanistan etc.
Alexandria, Va.:
Have Afghan women historically been veiled and segregated from men?
Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam: Women have historically been veiled and segregated from men. In fact Muslim conquerors picked up the idea of women as chattels or belongings from the Byzantine Greek and Sassanian Persian empires which they overran. The veiled and segregated woman was part of the walled house and gardens of the wealthier classes.
Washington, D.C.:
Is it realistic to assume that Afghani women who are married to husbands involved with terrorist activities do not know about that involvement? If they do know, and don't agree with their husbands, do they ever leave them to raise their children in peace?
Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam: Women married to such husbands may well not know what their husbands are doing. Women are often uneducated and take no interests in the men's 'community' activities, outside the house. If the activities are taking place in the area where the woman and her husband live, if her husband confides in her and if she has to provide hospitality for his 'colleagues' then she may have an idea. A woman in Pakistan or Afghanistan can rarely survive away from her family and extended family. She cannot get a house on her own, get an independent job and lead a 'normal' life as single women can in the West. This is not even possible in places like Tajikistan. It is because of the social unrest and society's views about women living alone.
Washington, D.C.:
Over the past several weeks I have seen pictures of Afghan refugees leaving the country. One thing that sticks out is that, at least in the photos I've seen, there were no women or children. Where are all the women and children?
Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam: The women and children are often either left behind in rural areas with relatives or they are already in the refugee camps and urban areas in Pakistan.
John from Chevy Chase, Md.:
By what means can U.S. citizens give the non-combatant people of Afghanistan assistance to survive the current crisis without, at the same time, giving assistance to the Taliban?
Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam: The best way is to give assistance to reputable aid agencies operating in Afghanistan. Such organisations try their hardest to ensure that the assistance which they provide does not go astray and is not diverted to the military.
El Paso, Texas:
What can a person or organization do, both practically and politically, to directly benefit the women and children of Afghanistan? How can we ensure that the aid that they need will, in fact, reach them?
washingtonpost.com:
Sepideh, what are some programs currently run by the Women's Commission for Afghan women?
Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam: I think once again the answer is respond generously to fundraising campaigns. Become more informed and stay informed on the Afghan situation. Support advocacy groups who have people on the ground and provide good up to date information. Lobby local politicians.
To ensure that aid reaches the right people I guess one would have to check how accountable the organisation is which one is giving funds to. If they can show you as clearly as possible - it's not always easy - where the money is going and the impact it's had, it's a start.
The Women's Commission provides support to many Afghan women's organisations who are best placed to provide good assistance to women and children. We also provide information and advice to organisations and individuals who wish to work with Afghan women and children - these can be anything from donors to human rights advocacy groups to journalists to UN agencies. We try to highlight the most importanat issues affecting various groups of Afghan women at any one time. Afghan women's NGOs for instance need a lot of help to make their way and establish themselves in what is currently a male-dominated environment. They have mobility problems to contend with in Afghanistan and they have to learn how to navigate the male-dominated political environment in Pakistan. They need a lot of support in developing the skills they already have and using all their energy. We try and provide help in some of those areas.
Frederick, Md.:
Obviously there are men and women against the Taliban. However, are there any women that truly support the Taliban or does the group of supporters consist solely of men?
Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam: Obviously Mullah Omar has a wife and she must like him...Joking apart, the families of Taliban leaders and fighters include women who support them and have been brought up in a conservative world where questions have never been asked. Reaching their womenfolk is not easy.
Cleveland, Ohio:
There appears to be an aspect to the Taliban version of Islam that includes extreme oppression of women. Hatred of women appears to have been part of the hijacking, in which females were brutally attacked. The national and international press, while reporting the repression of women in Afghanistan, do not appear to be drawing connections between that repression and some Islamic movements and terrorist activities. Do you believe there is a connection? Is the worldwide advancement of women's rights causing a backlash in the Islamic world?
Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam: This is an interesting question. I think that Islamist groups opposing overly secular regimes in Muslim countries have manipulated the 'woman question' as the secular regimes have. Unfortunately women have not been able to make tremendous advances for themselves in many parts of the Muslim world. One male politician bestows rights by force and one takes them away. A good example is Iran where women had veils forcibly taken off their heads in the streets earlier this century because the Shah at the time wanted his country to appear 'modern' and veiled women didn't fit in the picture. Some years later Ayatollah Khomeini came and put the veils right back on again. I think both sets of events were traumatic for women. The situation is similar in Afghanistan. I think the worst thing is having women's identities manipulated for a political or economic cause, anywhere in the world. I think that Muslim women will eventually decide what a modern Muslim woman is for themselves. Until that time we have to struggle against the violence and manipulation.
Washington, D.C.:
If the ruling Taliban militia was replaced by a new Afghan government (one supported by Mohammed Zahir Shah or supported by the Northern Alliance), if and how would you anticipate the situation for Afghan women changing?
Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam: Initially there would be a 'cosmetic' freedom for women. They would have mobility, choice in dress codes but attitudes and established ideas about gender roles would remain the same. I think the most dangerous thing would be complacency. Hopefully, Afghan women would continue taking steps towards to taking their rights in their own hands. There would be an improvement in terms of access to education, health and jobs but for the majority of rural women things would change slowly. There would be a lot of work.I think the most dangerous thing would be complacency and letting appearances fool outsiders that Afghan women's problems have been solved. Don't forget that in Northern Alliance areas women wear burqas by force and that forced marriage is a big problem. Also look at Zahir Shah's followers and their Afghan peace process - do you see any Afghan women there?
Virginia:
Are Afghan women Muslim? Is Afghanistan an Arab state even though they speak Pashtu?
Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam: Afghan women are Muslim. Afghanistan is not an Arab state. Both Pushtun and Dari are Indo-European languages, like languages derived from a Latin base. Afghanistan shares the cultures of Iran, which has a rich Aryan past, and the Central Asian steppes to the north.
New York City, N.Y.:
Have you seen a great difference in the way women are treated in the area controlled by the Northern Alliance as compared to the land controlled by the Taliban?
Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam: As I said the Northern Alliance allow women access to education and women are allowed to work but the attitude remains the same. Women are forced to wear the burqa and are subject to the whims and caprices of Northern Alliance commanders operating in their areas.
Alexandria, Va.:
Does the Koran impose any restrictions on women? Why are they not treated like human beings? Is it their sin to be born as females?
I got one more question: Do they do FGM (Female Genital Mutilation) in Afghanisthan like in most of the African nations?
Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam: Thankfully there is no FGM.
As far as I know the Quran does not condone the treatment of women one sees in many Muslim countries. It is a map, to guide Muslims through life, and the various map readers are the ones who get hopelessly muddled and end up going all over the place! It is the interpretation of the Quran plus the Hadith (the sayings and teachings of the Prophet Mohammad) which vary and create problems in some more conservative communities.
Alexandria, Va.:
From your unique perspective, are Western women viewed as overtly corrupt in our dress, language, education and behavior? I live amongst many Muslim women and I sometimes wonder how they feel living in this culture.
Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam: I think that some people can certainly view women that way. I think it depends on the Muslim observer and the Western woman being observed. I think all over the world we have different values and we are all susceptible to judging others. There are modalities.
Orlando, Fla.:
Should the anti-terrorism campaign be successful in bringing down the Taliban-ruled government, do you see a brighter future for these Afghan women, with possibly the Northern Alliance coming into power?
Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam: If the Northern Alliance come into power without a strong armed minbder I fear for Afghan women. It was under the various factions of the Northern Alliance that many Afghan women in urban and sometimes rural areas were raped, mutilated and murdered. General Dostum's troops are famous for this. Some groups even held groups of women captive for their pleasure. families were afraid to let beautiful young daughters to be seen by any commanders for fear of the results. I doubt whether they've 'matured'. I think that they cannot be allowed to start their rape, pillage, extortion and misrule once again.
Bethesda, Md.:
There is an intersting piece on slate.com today discussing the all-male nature of the terrorist groups. The author cites high dowry payments and polygamy as reasons why many young Afgani men are unable to find women and marry; thereby increasing the need for some other group for the men to belong to.
Do you have any thoughts on this? Is there a female equivalent to the terrorist cell?
Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam: I haven't really come across any female terrorist cells although many Afghan women did assist the Mujahideen in thyeir struggle against the Soviets.
High dowry payments and polygamy do create great difficulties in various Afghan communities. It creates resentment from young men. It's true. I'm not sure that it's just the lack of wives that drives young men to join terrorist groups. It's one factor among many.
Arlington, Va.:
At what age are women forced into submission or forced to marry? Is there a dowry and is that a major factor for families to marry off their daughters? What is their expected role?
Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam: Interpretations of Islamic law state that a girl can be married at 9 years old. In some rural areas girls of 12 are married off whereas some families would not dream of marrying a daughter before the age of 18. Some daughters are never married off because the 'right' suitor is never found. The dowry factor is important. Some families set a high dowry to show the status of their families, the fact that they command respect, that they are challenging the family of the suitor to provide for teir daughter as she has been provided for. It's a matter of repect. Some families are just greedy. A woman's role is seen as bearer of family, keeper of house and home, imparter of culture and religion and supporting the man in any way the man dictates in providing for the family. There is no role for a single women - no convents in Islam!
Lancaster, Pa.:
The citizens that you have encountered in Afghanistan--how do they view America? Both our government and our citizen population?
Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam: I think that there is a great deal of respect from Afghans. They have looked to America to assist in times of need. I think that most Afghans see America as powerful and hope that the American government will be benevolent and help them. Many people explain that they got rid of Russia for America during the Jihad or Holy War and that America should respect it's obligations to the Afghan fighters. From most sectors of the Afghan population one sees nothing but generosity and hospitality towards all foreigners. It is sad to see that strained by the drought and growing economic hardships which Afghans have been suffering from over the past few years.
Washington, D.C.:
Thank you for providing important information on this issue. I hope one thing that comes out of this tragedy is a better understanding of the plight of the Afghan people, particularly women.
In the various doucumentaries and smuggled videotapes from Afghanistan, I've seen how the Taliban has used force to conquer villages throughout the country. One interview with three sisters whose mother had been killed by Taliban forces implied that the girls had been raped, though they wouldn't say for sure. Regardless of the truth in that particular scenario, have there been any reports of the Taliban using rape as a tool of their war?
Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam: This is complicated and I have been following this closely. I think that the non-Afghan elements have been guilty of this offence. I think that the Pushtun Taliban troops are loth to isolate fellow Pushtun tribesmen by using this weapon. Although the Taliban troops have been killing males in Hazarajat for instance they have not killed or raped Hazara women. Interviewing Uzbek and Turlmen women from the north one hears the same. No rapes. I have to say that this surprises me. But since the beginning the Taliban have tried to show that they are different from Northern Alliance troops. Those who do report rape seem to have seen it inflicted by the Taliban's Arab and Pakistani 'guests'. I think that the taliban do use their current status to force families to hand over daughters for marriage so forced marriage is a big issue. I also believe that in many communities families have been forced to allow daughters to become prostitutes to ensure survival. Such women will be used by the Taliban and certainly not given respect.
Washington, D.C.:
Do you think the only way women's rights will be upheld in Afghanistan after the Taliban is through Western intervention and close monitoring, or do you think the various players in the region will do the job?
Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam: I think that there are individual Afghan women and Afghan women's groups who will do a great job but they will need plenty of support from partners in the region and from partners in the West.
Woodmere, Ohio:
Here's an unfair question since you have been very informative and helpful on these issues. Are you suprised by our interest in or ignorance of the culture and condition of Afghan women?
Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam: Not at all. I have been acting as a sort of 'tourist information' on Afghan women for many years so I guess I'm used to all sorts of questions!
Alexandria, Va.:
How active is the organization RAWA in Afghanistan?
Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam: RAWA have a good website and they are vociferous. I have to be honest and say that I have never seen their projects even though I have tried and I have met very few of their people. They are there and they have activities but the level and the coverage is a mystery to me and many of my colleagues in other agencies.
Rockville, Md.:
Your views and mission seem to go against the traditional Muslim views and you seem not be anti-U.S. such as those portrayed on the news on the day of the attacks as cheering in the streets. The images portrayed by them leads many to believe that the countries in that area are very anti-United States, but are there people in the Afghanistan that do not share the majority view and does not support the Taliban's support of Il Saban?
Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam: I think my views are shared by millions of Muslims around the world actually. I think that the hard core people that the press has been focusing on are the minority but they're far more interesting than people like me and all the other ordinary people who just want to get on with a peaceful life! I think the majority of Afghans would like peace and prosperity, the ability to plan for the future, grow old and watch their children grow up and have a good future. We all want that regardless of our religion.
Alexandria, Va.:
Is it true that only about 15% of Afghan women are literate and only about 30% of the men?
Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam: Absolutely true. The education infrastructure in Afghanistan has almost always been poor. Interest in sending children to school has been low. Afghanistan has been an agrarian society for hundreds of years and people consider that to be a farmer, or mother, or carpet weaver you don't need to be literate.
Falls Church, Va.:
Can you share with us some of the steps that the UN and relief agencies can take to alleviate the suffering of Afghan refugee women?
Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam: I think that as with programming in the past the UN and other agencies try to set up health and especially reproductive heal th programmes for refugee women. Malnutrition clinics and supplementary feeding centres. Adult literacy and education for girls. Income generation programmes. Nowadays awareness raising on women's rights. These types of projects have been undertaken and will continue to benefit Afghan women as long as women can participate actively in designing and implementing these programmes. But we need a lot more work on the participation end of things and on leadership building and capacity building in such areas.
Columbia, Md.:
Why haven't more Muslim leaders and countries gotten together to denounce the treatment of women at the hands of the Taliban? Even now as they distance themselves from the Taliban it's primarily in reaction to the terrorist attacks in New York and Washington. Why has this never been an issue before?
During the last few years of apartheid, South Africa was roundly denounced and isolated from the rest of the world. Why not the same reaction to the oppressive treatment of Muslim women in Afghanistan and elsewhere?
Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam: If you can, have a look at some domestic violence list servs from Pakistan - it's shocking and appalling what Pakistani men do to Pakistani women. The situation for women in Iran is pretty awful. In Turkey women were recently jailed for complaining that the police raped them while in custody. Women in former Soviet Republics struggle for their rights. Muslim fighters in Indian held Kashmir are throwing acid at women in order to make them wear the burqa. Women in Saudi still can't drive and in most Arabic countries the situation is not that good. So who's going to cast the first stone as it were?
Newport Beach, Calif.:
How many educated women remain in Afghanistan today? Also, if female physicians are not allowed to practice within the country, how do Afghan women receive medical treatment?
Frederick, Md.:
What level of health care is available to women? How is women's health addressed? Thank you so much for your time and knowledge.
Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam: The percentage of educated Afghan women is low. Women doctors can actually treat female patients.
Access to health care is dictated by a number of issues:
1. Is there any in your area? If you live in a rural area probably not
2. Can you afford it? In most cases probably not
3. Does your family prioritise wonmen's health as a key spending area - maybe
4. Can you be spared from your chores on the farm or in the house to go for health care - maybe
5. Are you allowed out of the house by your family - husband, mother-in-law etc. - if not you have to wait until they decide when you're sick enough to need medical attention.
It's a complicated and often very sad picture.
Washington, D.C.:
Where can we find the names of reputable charities to which contributions can be made to help Afghan refugees?
Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam: That's a tough one to answer and I couldn't answer it myself without being partisan but I think that from what I have seen and off the top of my head, Doctors Without Borders do a great job, as does the Red Cross, the International Rescue Committee and of course the Women's Commission for Refugee Women and Children!
Cleveland, Ohio:
How can women in the United states address these issues, other than monetary donations?
Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam: There are many list servs and women's groups who do advocacy and send petitions around or require assistance other than financial contributions. You can find them easily on the web and I'm sure that the Women's Commission office in NY could point you in the right direction.
Sultan Ali. Pakistani in Kuwait:
Is Pakistan playing any role in educating the Women of Afghanistan or just looking into the problem of how to feed the refugees? If yes, then it is fine. If no, then it shall be the responsibility of the UN to support in this area as start for new Afghanistan from now.
Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam: Pakistani organisations have not been involved in women's education so far. The refugee feeding programmes will be done by foreign agencies in collaboration with the Pakistan government.
Columbia, Md.:
I'd like to see the US and other Western nations lead the way in condemning the oppressive treatment of women everywhere, however what we often hear from our government leaders here in the US is that womens' issues in places like Pakistan and Iran are more of a "cultural" matter and less of a political one. Hence our government's reluctance to get involved.
I think that's a terrible way to ignore a very serious matter but even here in the U.S. women have limited ability to guide foreign policy.
But I appreciate you taking the time to discuss this matter with us. Hopefully you have opened some eyes and ears with this forum.
Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam: Thank you. I think we have to be quite forthright with those who want to brush serious issues related to women's rights under the carper because the government is 'doing business'. That's hypocrisy but as long as the information keeps flowing we can continue to inform and act.
Alexandria, Va. 22314:
As a western woman, I find it so difficult to wrap my mind around how women exist under the Taliban. It's something that my western thinking just can't grasp. My initial reaction to the oppression that I hear so much about is "how horrible...I can't imagine living that way."
But, how do Afghani women feel about it? How do Afghani women view themselves? Do they feel oppressed?
And one more question: how much support does the Taliban enjoy in Afghanistan? Are they just a most vocal (and powerful) minority, or do they have the full support of the people?
Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam: The support ofg the Taliban is fading as they fail to deliver the security that they promised when they first came to power. Afghanistan has become poorer and security is being undermined in Taliban controlled areas once agin.
I met Afghan women in rural areas who felt free (!) because they had returned from Iran to their villages where they could be with their extended families and wear the burqa. They said thay had felt naked without it. Similarly there are women who feel that they are the living dead under the Taliban regime. It depends on the circumstances of the women concerned. I can say that women who are displaced from their homes, have hungry children, have girls who can't go to school, haven't seen husbands or sons who have gone away to work, are educated but can't work, have lost family members or limbs to landmines, have lost family due to violence, the list is interminable...all these women are suffering because of twenty years of war and increasingly conservative Muslim regimes, the Taliban being the latest.
Sepideh Azerbaijani-Moghaddam: I think I'll wrap up now. I think in these years that I have had working in Afghanistan what I have learnt to admire about Afghan women is their warmth, sense of humour, resourcefulness and ability to do a lot with a little. They are tough and I've learnt a lot from them about not giving up and weathering adverse conditions. thanks for all your questions. I've enjoyed answering them.
washingtonpost.com:
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